Super Duper Sonic
Tuesday evening I posted a classified on the kayak federation’s board, looking for a Vajda Supersonic 01 size L in marathon layup(<8kg).
Less than 24 hours later, I got my Supersonic at close to half the price of a new one. Oh the joy!
While I’m used to the club’s Supersonic kayaks, today’s training on a completely flat lake was great.
Supersonic 01 at 7.5kg with Kevlar hull and carbon ends.
Former owner was on the US race team.
The pump is removed until I settle on a position for the seat and footrest.
With the Supersonic in my quiver, the Shadow will not find much use before summer as an ocean boat. At any rate I’m not going to sell it. I’m not really good at parting with my kayaks.
Speaking of the Shadow I did get around to install a pull bar on the Shadow’s footrest. Really it was plug and play. I bet Elio and Nelo use the same manufacture for their accessories. I’m ordering a pull bar for the Supersonic now.
Footrest equipped with pull bar.
Footrest installed inside the Elio Shadow/Dolphin/Golfinho
This kind of posts showing details of racing kayak outfitting, footrest, etc., is the most interesting for me. I cannot see these things in person in Colorado. Thanks!
I am just trying to manufacture a footrest for my Thunderbolt kayak:
http://race.fit2paddle.com/C1159474119/E20070128100740/index.html
Now, I wonder where a pull bar should be installed: above or below a tiller bar? Is it possible that the tiller bar in my kayak is installed higher than in the ICF kayak? I haven’t noticed any significant difference between my Sisson Nucleus and Thunderbolt kayaks.
Here is a picture of the Sisson footrest (with another problem which took me by surprise):
http://photokayaker.fit2paddle.com/C2079147609/E20070213073538/index.html
Hi Marek
I follow you on the K1 outfitting. When I was “just” a sea kayaker, these things were a mystery to me. The K1 crowd was never very Internet-aware.
Installing a pull bar below the tiller is new to me and I haven’t seen it before. In a marathon kayak it would intervene with the pump I guess.
BTW I see many more footstraps than pull bars around. I never understood why. Perhaps you could experiment with a foot strap instead.
On the above pictures it seems like your seat wouldn’t actually be on highest possible
position. However, I cant see how high it really is. Have you measured your seat height,
from the lowest point of the seat to the bottom of the boat ?
I have an old X-Lancer copy, in which my comfort limit in relatively easy conditions
(wind less than 5-6 m/s or so) is 5 cm from the bottom. I can paddle it in waves, but
can’t maintain good speed then. With lower seat (
With lower seat (
With lower seat ( less than 3 cm from the bottom) I can paddle on full power even in small waves.
Our club purchased an Elio Dolphin as a kayak which adult members can use as a first contact
to tippier kayaks than Tracer. However, the boat came with very high platform seat, 10 cm or
so from the bottom. I found it more difficult to paddle than a Tiger with 6-7 cm seat…
So therefore a question from another “just a sea kayaker”: what kind of seat height you are
able to use after having trained few years with racing kayaks ?
Somebody ate the end of my previous post, sorry for triple-posting ..
Hi
I just measured the seat height of my Shadow. The front lip of the seat is raised 3cm above the platform/board, which is 2cm above the bottom. I think I can paddle more or less all out with that setup in most waves. The previous owner of the Shadow lowered the seat.
Just for fun I also measured the height of the seat in my Inuk. Two years ago I replaced the regular Kirton/Inuk seat with first a Plastex racing seat and then a Nelo racing seat. Here the front lip is 4cm above the platform and the platform itself is 5cm above the bottom. The Inuk with this setup is still a good deal more stable than the Shadow. I’ve seen some Nelo Inuk from the factory been produced with much the same seat height.
Currently I think the Struer Lancer is my limit for racing kayaks in ocean waves. I haven’t paddled my Nelo FW 2000 for a year now but I’m curious of how it will feel after the many sessions in my Supersonic.
Best regards Peter
Yesterday at our club we measured the seat of the Elio Dolphin. The front lip of the seat is eight (8) cm over the bottom of the boat. We also measured the seat on one of our elite racer’s Vajda Supersonic. Seat height on his Supersonic was 10 cm over the bottom. Of course Dolphin is wider that Supersonic, but Supersonic sinks bit deeper on the water under same weight, so the seat height measured from the waterline seems to be somewhat similar.
Dolphin/Shadow with 8 cm seat feels tippier than my Lancer with 5 cm seat. When the Dolphin arrived, I tested it also by sitting on the seat platform which is 3,5 cm above the bottom. It felt way more stable than Lancer. I think that with a seat similar to yours or even bit lower the Dolphin could be good step between Tracer and older “real” racing designs, althought I find Lancer with ultra-low “river” seat more comfortable in waves because it allows one to lean the kayak a bit.
Have you measured seat height on your Supersonic ?
Rauli, about seat height, do not forget paddler’s weight in the equation.
I use a Shadow,Dolphin and I experience some stability problems in small waves due I think to the fact that my wheight is only 77 kg. The boat is carrying around 90 kg normally which puts you deeper. Shadow is also heavy rockered. I am floating too much like in a nutshell and looking for another boat maybe tippier but for my wheight; I have a ranger and feel completely stable there because I am over at the top wheight range for that model. So I think the shadow is good for someone over 85kg and strong.
I experienced with a lower seat but I do not like this paddling position, like in a downriverboat; I like to seat higher.
The platform of my Supersonic is raised 4.5 cm above the bottom and the front lip of the seat is 5 cm above the platform == 9.5 cm above the bottom.
I think I would get troubles with my hips if I lowered the seat. Not that I would want to anyway. I’m gradually improving my sense of balance in this kayak.
I’ve been given some exercises to I’m prove my balance and forward stroke and I think it’s helping.
/Peter
Hi Peter from Canda’s canoe racing capital, Dartmouth Nova Scotia.
I’d like to hear of some of the balance drills. I am currently 2yrs into an old British tracer knock-off and am having nothing but problems getting comfortable in it. Can’t seem to lower the seat anymore and it still feels very high. Gonna check the measurement from bottom tomorrow…
Great to view your site by the way. Totally agree there isn’t much info out there on K1 stuff, funny I guess it is a more obscure sport than we wouild believe. Nice knowing there is a community of like minded (want to go fast older folk) out there.
Andrew C
A race kayak will always feel tippy. Sea kayaks got the seats 2-3 cm above the bottom. The beam is not that important for the stability if you are sitting above the surface.
Modern racers got less beam and more rocker so these kayaks are going deeper in the water. But as the ere is a floating body under the seat, the kayak gets more tipy if you lean the hull.
I got a Cleaverx and a Zedtech Atila (Nelo Vanquish copy). The stability on flatwater is about the same or even better in the Atila, but with sidewaves, the Cleaverx is more stable.
The only way to get stable is to practise. If possible, increase the hight of the seat for a while and then go back. The key to stability is to relax. Fokus on a point atleast 10 meter infront of the kayak and not on the kayak stem.
Difference in the seat height makes great stability difference. Anyway, the Tracer should be very stable unless you sit on two or three phonebooks on the seat
About speed / glide difference between Supersonic/Atila type of kayaks and more stable kayaks such as Elio Shadow. How different do they feel – or what is is the difference in marathon speed you can keep with these kayaks ? With a touring kayak I’m able to paddle 9,5 km training course in 49 minutes which means average speed of 11,5 km/h. With the higher seat in Lancer I’m about 0,3-0,5 km/h faster. I haven’t tried with the ultra-low seat .. probably have to do my next time-trial with it.
Hi
My problem with stability and the Supersonic is not so much a problem of capsizing(unless paddling in side waves where I’m still very uncomfortable).
The trouble for me is that my forward stroke has clearly suffered in the process of getting used to the lack of stability. I’ve adapted a kind of forward stroke that provides loads of support but less speed and power. Much too high cadence and too short strokes.
Andrew – one of the trainers told me to practice this drill:
First do a stroke on the left, then right, then left and then freeze for a couple of seconds in the position for inserting the blade on the right again. Repeat only this time freeze on the left side. So you get into a short rhythm and must break it up. The point is to learn to feel safe for the short time that the paddle provides no support. This allows for a more controlled forward stroke, with a lower cadence.
A self invented drill I use is at times to make a conscious effort not to paddle conservatively when I’m feeling uneasy. This ‘come hell or high water’ attitude I believe helps pushing the limit quicker.
Still Erik is right of cause. Practice is the key. As a rule of thumb I’ve been told that even an experienced racer must paddle +500 km a year in a modern K1 to feel at home.
Erik by the way – I’m eagerly awaiting your opinion on the Sipre kayak.
Rauli it’s a good question for which I have no answer. I have yet to do real time trials with different kayaks under the same conditions.
Hi Peter, nice website here. Not forgetting nice boat too.
I have a query here. The paddle may hit the side of the kayak when doing the forward stroke. May I know if there are any good recommendations on how to protect the 2 sides of the kayak from these beatings?
Hi Michael
Glad you like the site.
You should use some kind of protective tape. Some use regular duct tape, other use clear 3M protective tape(made for cars) and then I suspect some kayak deals sells special tape too.
Best regards Peter
Hi Peter,
I received the Sipre Katabatic Master from Utinaturen today. I’m supposted to race 70 km in downwind in Stockholm archipelago on Saturday. I had a short tour in some windy conditions, but small waves. The kayak got a very flat bottom and the rudder is very small. It is not that easy to keep the kayak on track. I will try to change to a bigger rudder if I find one.
The Katabatic got more stability than FW2000, but I think the FW2000 got better balance and is a better surfer. I got the feeling that the Katabatic is strongest against waves.
I’ll decide tomorrow if I will use the K. or some other kayak. There will be atleast two Epic V10 in the race and I think they will go really fast in downwind.
Practice makes difference!
Okey, I’m only going up from a quite ordinary sea kayak (NF Silhouette) to a Björn Johansen Escape but it have taken me a while to get where I am right now. Today was practice day in perfect conditions: a grey-bearded sailor at the kayak and canoe sailing club of mine said the wind might be 12 m/s on average and 15 in the gusts. I was doing loops, paddling round and round again, in the waves/wind a bit outside our jetty. I also learned some good drills from Arnströms homepage.
I believe I will be happy with the speed level of an Escape – but I want the ability to go out more or less whenever, and go outside our archepelago for a gaze at the horizon. Maybe I’ll reach that goal. Hopefully, you know; practice makes difference!
Some little words from a beginnner within this arena,
Patric
Hi,
Just wondering if there are any particular recommendations for the tyep/brand of gelcoat for the repair of scratches on the hull of the boat?
Thank you.
Regards.
Hi Michael
Sorry can’t help you there. I suggest you email Vajda for advice.
Best regards Peter
No problem. Just checking it out. Strong wind slam my boat against some rocks under the water. Got some bad scratches on the hull. Cheers!
A few photos of the Katabatic Master on the ground http://www.arnstrom.org/photo/index.php?gallery=./Sipre%20Katabatic. If I have time next weekend I will take it out on the Sea.
Took a 20 km tour at Saturday and can just say it is similar to Tracer on flatwater regarding speed and stability. It has plenty of volume around the cockpit, so it is floating well.
I think it would be possible to paddle this kayak in moderat sea without problems. Kayak Pro’s Vampire got better secondary stability, but it’s very long. Too long kayaks are not working very well in the Baltic sea.
I will write a review later and put on my site.
Thanks Erik. I love the color. I’m really looking forward to your review.
Today I called a friend not too far from here and asked him to measure what leg length can fit in his Katabatic M. If I can fit, I’ll go for a test ride.
Hi, I know this is an old blog, but I would add that I recently bougth a Sipre Millenium, I tested it yesterday in windy conditions, with waves at Furesø ( a lake ) It showed that it was lively but stable, its wery much like the kabatic, but wider ( 50 cm). I bougth it for training and speed.
Hi pete,
Thanks for hosting these discussions. I find them very informative and inspiring.
I own a Elio Shadow, and , like Nicepaddler with a weight of under 80kg the Shadow feels a bit too floaty. By now I am getting used to a supersonic M and was surprised at how comfortable the Supersonic feels. Mind you, with the Shadow I can give full force while the supersonic still feels like half sports half balancing act.
Now I am looking to exchange the Shadow for a full racing K1. I saw an advertisement for a Plastex Olympic Warrior, and am curious how that one compares to a Supersonic. I could not find any information about this on the web, so I am curious if you have any idea.
Thanks a lot!
Remko
Hi,
Sorry, the boat I saw for sale is a Plastex Olympic Apollo 80. Not a Warrior. The query remains the same…would this be a boat to get more proficient in K1 marathon paddling ?
Cheers
Remko
Hi Remko,
I guess that Plastex boat is the one for sale in De Rijp? It looks like a nice boat and I wish it had been for sale when I bought my Warrior 85 copy last year. The layup is definitely better than the racing plus I have.
As I started out marathon paddling last year (after 25 years of polo, freestyle, surf, whitewater etc.) I understand you question.
The thing is: only paddling a racing kayak a lot makes you feel at home in the boat. Only now (after a year of paddling it) my K1 seems stable enough to actually not bother with small motorboats and waves and such.
Would you be the person who is selling the Shadow near Rotterdam? I live in Barendrecht, just under Rotterdam. If you want to you can try my Warrior to compare it to the Supersonic (probably the blue one for sale as well?).
As for sizes, you might want to know that Lennart (the guy from kanoshop) paddles anything, including the shops demo Epic Legacy XL (meant for guys over 90kg, whereas Lennart weighs something like 70 – 75 kilo’s).
In case you would like to try a smaller boat: there is an ex-Eef de Groot Plastex (orange one) for sale at Kanoshop. Not sure what they would want for it but if you contact them, ask for Lennart and tell them Michiel told you about the Plastex he might make you a nice deal. I know for sure the boat is good, stiff, high-end layup etc.
Let me know if you want to test my Warrior: michiel (at) start2paddle dot nl.
Cheers,
Michiel
Stability of Vajda Supersonic – yesterday we had our regular 10 km training race at our club. The wind was a bit stronger than usual, 12 m/s. The course is sheltered from the Baltic Sea, but still has open stretches of 2 km or so, so there are quite some waves (for a sprint/marathon kayak).
The strongest guy (national kayak marathon silver medalist two years ago) was paddling his Vajda Supersonic 01, and didn’t have any problems with stability. I was paddling an Epic V10L surfski, and wasn’t quite able to hang on his wash. He said that the waves were large enough that he did catch some good surf runs, but from my point of view not large enough for the surfski to catch runs.
When conditions are milder, I might have a chance with my Kirton Talon K1. Stabilitywise it is quite similar to Cleaver-X and Tiger. I should some day have a test paddle on a Supersonic too see how different do they feel. I guess that with similar seat height the Supersonic might be slightly more stable than Talon/Cleaver-X.
Does anyone have experiences of the difference between Supersonic and Cleaver-X ?
Remko, I have understood that Plastex boats are not very usual sight at marathon events. Generally they feel much more unstable than old style kayaks like Cleaver-X and Tiger.
Hi Peter,
I just bought a Elio Shadow to race marathons (on rivers) and to paddle on rivers where there are many boats (and therefore large waves).
I read on your blog that you were able to adapt a pullbar on this kayak.
Can you confirm what I understood : these pullbar came from Nelo ?
Thanks for your answer
Hi Chris
Congratulation on your new kayak.
I believe my pullbar is made or sold by Vajda. At least my kayak dealer lists the pullbar under ‘Vajda accessories’.
These days I prefer a tight footstrap over a pullbar but that’s just my personal preference.
Best regards Peter
Hi Peter
Thanks for your answer and thanks also for your blog with many interesting informations