Batboat joins the fleet
Last week I bought a new (used) kayak – an Elio Shadow. I can’t find the boat on Elio’s homepage but it’s a pretty new model with dimensions at 520cm x 48cm. The danish dealer calls it a modern Tracer but I think it’s somewhere in between a Tracer and a Lancer. Still it’s definitely a K1-trainer and not an all out ICF racing boat. There’s some more volume in the bow than in a true racer and even sufficient space for wearing surf shoes and still be able to operate the tiller control. It feels like a near perfect boat for improving my balance and still be able to go out in most conditions. Now while I got the Escape for this very purpose, I was starting to miss some of the thrill of paddling faster and less stable boats. I still consider the Escape a very well designed training boat. In fact I can’t make up my mind if I should part with the Escape so I send it for storage.
Elio Shadow at 12kg in Carbon kevlar.
The Shadow has quite some rocker as this photo of the empty boat demonstrates.
Nice high back seat which the previous owner lowered by 2 cm.
I spend the evening playing around with the boat in a sheltered creek. Now while I’m far from a Robert Clegg, I did my first ever training of portage technique, as this clip demonstrates.
Just discovered your blog. Very nice.
I tried an Elio shadow and have my knees squeezed in the center by the shape of the rim.
As the seat was original, I couldn’t move it further aft. But it seems I have the problem in another model, the beaver. Also an Elio model.
What is your height in cm ? I am 1M85, but legs on the long side.
This is why I stay away from Elio.
Hi
I’m 194cm tall and I never felt the cockpit rim was a problem. I normally paddle with my knees pretty close together. In fact as for the sitting position, my Shadow is properly the ICF style kayak I have the best sitting comfort in. The club’s Vajda Supersonic on the other hand, gives my legs trouble after some 15 minutes. I think the seat in my Shadow is equal to the Nelo high-back seat. The previous owner had installed an old style Struer Boat seat, which I didn’t like though. I quickly installed the original(?) seat. As I bought my Shadow 2nd hand, I not sure of which modifications have been made to it.
I still like the Shadow. It really lives up to it’s ‘K1-Trainer’ label. When the weather is nasty at the lake, I’m always happy to use it. Buying it for ocean paddling was an mistake though, as I lack the balance skill.
Peter; I am very new to thw world of Kayak racers. I recently obtained an old Kirton and thought the transistion
from canoe/touring kayak would be a little simpler. WOW. I thought I had good balance. Not any more. What are some of the tricks (time) to increasing my learning curve. I have yet been able to sit in the boat unassisted without falling out! I have taken to sitting on a 1×12 about 4 ft long balanced on a 4 inch round pipe on the back deck for practice. Can you direct me to websites or any info on how you guys stay up right in these things. Thanks
Hi Ian
My best advice would be to use a range of kayaks. Start with an easy kayak and then progressively move on to the harder boats. This is how people typically learns around here and I believe this is the most effective way. If you’re not member of a club and don’t intend to buy a range of boats, then this isn’t a solution.
The second best advice would be to lower the seat or entirely remove it in the beginning and sit on a foam pad.
Learning to paddle a fullblood racing kayak *is* hard for almost everybody. I often hear comments like ‘you need at least 500km in a racing kayak a year to just be comfortable’. Unlike say the skill of rolling a kayak, balancing an ICF racer takes continuously practice.
Best of luck with your project!
/Peter
Peter, I thought so, you are taller than me. The shadow changed its name to Dolphin it seems, or maybe is Dolphin a boat with different beam. Anyway I am watching this boat closely as I am 56 old. I am in a racing competition club and most paddlers were born in a K1…
Your comment on the seat is very interesting, because I also paddled a Nelo razor fitted with the nelo high backrest seat. I was so comfortable in the razor I did not want to come out anymore. Clearly the most comfortable paddling position i have experienced, maybe due to the seat. Shadow is very narrow in front, so I am amazed to hear you are ok in that cockpit. I paddle a Javelin, would like to try Kirton’s TOR and Marssport new Exelon.
Dear Peter,
I am an Italian paddler, and I would be interested in your advice about the kayk
choose.
I am 55 old, at thisa moment I have a kayak Stealth by Mori, Italia.
this kayak is quite unstable in little wave conditions, so I am looking for
a kayak to use in sea race.
What do you think about Nelo Viper 51, or Civet Vajda?
which is the waterline of your shadow, and which is the faster between this kayaks.
Last question, do you know something about Spirit by Neumann?
thanks for your help.
Best regard, Claudio
Hi Claudio
I’ve never been in a Viper 51 but I’m pretty sure that Viper 51, Civet Cat and Escape are quite equal. These kayaks are all designed to go to the limit of the danish ‘k1 trainer’ class. I cannot say which one of these are best. I guess it comes down to build quality, equipment, price and availability. Here in Denmark the best ‘k1 trainer’ racers are more or less equally divided among these kayaks.
In general I believe these kayaks (along with the slightly more tippy Tracer) are near optimal for fitness paddlers(say 2-4 sessions a week) paddling in mild to moderate conditions – regardless of age.
The Shadow(or whatever Elio choose to call it these days) is noticeable more tippy than a Tracer – more or less as a Struer Lancer. I think the Shadow is too tippy for many fitness paddlers. I bought mine Shadow from an older paddler, who never managed to feel comfortable with the stability in the ocean.
I haven’t meassured the waterline of the Shadow.
I never paddled a Spirit but a friend of mine sold his. I remember he told me that the Spirit was so stable, that he was able to put on a shirt while sitting in the kayak. I guess that means the stability is somewhere around the Viper/Civet/Escape then.
Good luck with finding the right kayak!
Best regards Peter
Hi Peter,
thank for your E-mail.
I am trying to find a Viper or Civet used in Italy.
I also found a web site in Uk for used kayak, and there are good prices.
For me the big problem to buy a kayak in england, is transfer the kayak
from UK to Italy.
Best regards, Claudio
Hi Peter
I am useful for yours blog in order to contact Claudio.
I Wished to thank you for this favour.
Best Regards Paolo
Claudio sono di Livorno ho 67 anni e Pagaio da 17.non faccio gare masters ma mi alleno abbastanza duramente con i masters e i ragazzi dell’Uc. Livornesi.Ho due Ks simili al viper o escape(sono una di Alessandrini e una di Kaminsky mail modello è lo stesso).Ho un Tracer
e un Nelo Fw2000.Conosco di nome lo Sthealth ma non lo ho mai provato.Ho naturalmente problemi di stabilità e in mare vado con il Tracer ma con il sedile molto basso.Con il Nelo non riescoad andare pur con il sedile basso appena il mare si fa un pò mossoCome società ci alleniamo invece in canali interni per le acque piatte.Ho dele strane difficoltà a ricevere le E-mail per cui contattami con il blog di Peter.Comunque il mio indirizzo è:giampaolo621@alice.it
Ciao
Hi Everyone,
I just bought an Elio shadow (more or less the one that is in the pictures (carbon/kevlar). It came with a low seat. Does anyone know how to mount a higher seat, and/or whether a Nelo high seat would fit?
By the way, I was afraid that the Elio would be too stable for me (I am just getting comfortable paddling an od K1 ‘sprint olympic’. But at first glance the Elio seems just as tippy or even tippier.
I am going out for a more serious session on Saturday… then I’ll really be able to assess whether I bought the right boat…
CHeers
REMko
Hi Remko
I believe the Nelo seats fit right in. Speaking of these kind of kayaks, I only now became aware of the new Vajda MSonic: http://www.vajdamr.sk/touring_K1_MSonic.htm
Sounds a lot like the Shadow to me though from the look at the photo with less rocker.
Best regards Peter
Hi Peter
I have been racing Pax-20, Rapier20 and Oceanx on sea in various conditions. I am thinking of Nelo Razor for sea competitions. I read that it is supposed to be similar to Coast runner, do you have any experience on these models or can you tell me if you would recommend them as sea racers.
Hi Olaf
No I haven’t paddled these two kayaks. I do believe they’re in the same range of speed and stability though. Wasn’t the Nelo Razor a copy of the Escape’s lower hull? I think Bjørn said the Coastrunner was close to the Escape’s speed. I do know that the Coastrunner is very popular as a club kayak.
As for using “K1 trainers”(turkajakker) as sea racers. Here in Denmark more ocean kilometers are paddle in these kayaks than in regular sea kayaks and sea racers. Equip with buoyancy bags and stick to the shore and you’ll be fine. Unless rolling is something you consider essential.
Stating the obvious – no kayak is perfect for all conditions.
I googled the ‘Pax-20′ you mentioned. Looks interesting. What’s your take on it?
Best regards Peter
Hi Peter
Yes, I read it too the Razor is a copy of the Escape. In my club here in Iceland there has been a lot of talk about starting a K-1 training, specialy for the younger. So my Idea was to start with a presentation of a boat similar to Coastrunner wich could handle some waves, wind and current. All the 5 competitions held in Iceland are on sea and can be in rough cond. for guys that have money to buy expensive equipmen, old ones like me (I am 41). The rules are that there have to be decklines, two hatches and spraydek. Thats why I was looking at the Razor, because on the Nelo web page it is equipped so.
I ordered the Pax 20 kit 2006 and I built it in 3 weeks (~100 hours). It is not as fast as the two other boats(I have managed to hold 11 km/hour for 1 km on the Pax) but I would like to put an understern rudder on it. It has very sharp lines so it can be difficult to etge or in larger windwaves. One thing about it, it is 24 kg and I cant thing of any boat as strong as this one compared to size and weight. Therefor I would recommend the other CLC types for seakayaking as a cheap way to own a strong boat, although I havent tryed the other models.
Say Peter, to you know of any second hand Coastrunners og Escapes?
Regards
Ólafur
Hi Olaf
I’m not aware of any Coastrunners/Escapes for sale but do monitor the for sale forum at the danish canoe federation’s homepage:
http://www.kano-kajak.dk/dkf/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=8
or post in the ‘buying’ forum:
http://www.kano-kajak.dk/dkf/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=7
I see there are currently a couple of trainers for sale.
Best regards Peter
Hello,
Is there anyone who’s tried the Elio Puma for once?
Because I heard very good results, but do he looks like a Kirton Tor? Want to paddle on windy canals and lakes like at the Gudena in Danmark.
Hi, peter, i am again to ask you some suggestions/advice
about the following kayaks:
Plastex Marathon Swift
Plastex Marathon Master.
You know, is hard to buy a kayak without test him.
If you have some advice about good and stable master kayaks,please tell to me.
Best regards, Claudio
Hi Claudio
The two Plastex kayaks you mention are quite different. The Swift being a Shadow/Lancer-like racer and the Master much more stable(Viper 51 / Escape). Both kayaks are quite popular in the danish clubs.
One kayak to consider in the stability range of the Swift would be a Zedtech Freelancer. I believe the Zedtech kayaks are gaining ground in Denmark and Sweden these years.
Oh and then it’s really about time I update the blog again. One of these days
Best regards Peter
Hi Claudio,
I am looking for the same type of boats as you are: in general 520×52 cm. At the club I tried an old Struer fenja and a Plastex marathon master. To me as a beginner both boats are quite equal (and nice). The fenja has a very shallow V-shape and the marathon has an U-shape, so perhaps my feeling that the master is a bit more ‘drifting’ is due to the hull shape. I saw that the Nelo viper also has an U-hull, so I expect it will have the feeling of a marathon master.
I really liked the fenja, but I was told that owners of such a boat would never part with it. Perhaps the new Struer Arrow is along the same lines?
Hi Peter,
I’ve read with interest your blog and I found some interest information regarding a matter that interest me the same way it interest Claudio, Paolo and Olaruf.
Since a few years now I am paddling scarcely due to my job. For this reason I bouth a kayak ergometer and I try to remain fit enough to enjoy during weekends and summertime.
I was used to paddle a Nelo Vanquish ML and I moved to Nelo Vanquish Vintage since a couple of years. However I still found it difficult to manage the stability of my boat especially when tired (of course) or in rough / windy conditions which happen quite often on a sea canal I am used to paddle in.
For all those reason I am wondering to buy a second boat to be used durin winter and when weather conditions are not very good. Looking at the market available boat I can see Nelo Razor, Nelo Viper 51, Nelo Vanquish Classic, Plastex Marathon Swift. Do you have any information about the difference among those boats? Of course the problem for me is to get the extra stability I need to paddle fast in mid to rough conditions even without lot of Km done in the water. I would like to undestand what will happen in my cruising speed on distances like 1000m and 10 Km with those different boats (normally I can paddle in the range of 3.4-3.7 m/s on > 5 Km on my Vanquish ….).
Thanks a lot for your answer
Hi,
i am a 60years old paddler from Belgium
actual boat = Lettman Renner
quite unstable
can claudio inform me of the web of Mori Italia (Stealth) and the web of the used
boats in England ?
bi
jean
Hi Jean, sorry, i miss the english used kayak web site. You can find some good opportunities in the following web site: http://www.kanubox.de/kanubox/index.php.
Mori do not have a web site, i give you the address and telephone number.
La Tecnoresine , Via Podestà 151 50124 Firenze. Tel. 055/2049622.
Regards, Claudio
Hi Alida,
escuse me , i give an answer very late to your question, but i was out of Peter’s blog
for lonf time.
I have never paddle the kayak Struer Fenja or Arrow. I had a Nelo razor, and i paddle it
at sea in winter time. I can tell you that is good compromise between stability and speed.I sell it and buy a Plastex Marathon Swift. This kayak have an olimpic seat, and so is hard to go out from the arbour when there are waves. Is a stable kayak in flat water,
but is not very fast for flatwater race. At the moment i am wating for a brand new kayak
Polledo Espana, mod. Delfin Veterano, and i am paddling a sea kayak Polledo Denia Sprinter. this is a very good and speed kayak.Best regards Claudio
hi Peter , Can you confirm the width of this kayak (shadow /dolphin)? Is it really 48cm (not 44)? Regards,
Patrick (elgium)
Hi Patrick
My Shadow is currently stored out of town(I’m using my Supersonic for most of my paddling) so I cannot messure it. However I’m 95% sure it’s wider than 44cm and 48cm sounds right.
Best regards Peter
hi Peter, i’m selected for the Belgium team in the paracanoeing (disabled) event ! The regulation (ICF)for this dicipline says that the boat must be 520cm 50cm(meassured from the hull) 12kg. Thats wy i’m searching for a kayak in that direction . Nelo got a model (Viper50)that is correct for this rule , but it is not looking like a K1 to me and the shadow(Dolphin) is. I dailly train in a K1 (Plastex) , so i prefer a mre real K1 look a like . Regards, Patrick
Hi Patrick
Congratulation for being selected for the team and my best wishes for the competition.
If I was you I’d probably go for that Viper anyway. How about installing a rotating seat to make it less stable?
Best regards Peter
hi Peter ,
the distance on these events is only 200m . The problem is that the boat(s) witch are correct for the ICF regulation is for paddlers +90-95kg ! My weight is only 70kg . So the shadow gives me the fealing of paddling in a real k1. We will see the next weekend in Vichy(France) where i have my first regatta (word cup)! Regards, Patrick
Hi,
Have you ever seen or used the Reval kayaks – Reval Sweden, not the Tahe Marine version.
I am trying to find a boat that is faast, but still capable of running in rough water and the odd overnight trip. The Commander – S from Reval looks like it might be a good boat.
Thanks for any advice.
Jay
Hi Jay
Yes I’ve seen the Reval kayaks a number of times and raced against the Reval Extreme some years ago.
From what I have heard the Commander is a very nice sea kayak and should do exactly what you’re looking for: fast but still usable for carrying gear.
Sorry I cannot be of more help. Perhaps some of the swedes here can give some details.
/Best regards Peter